Jane & Dave / Cannatrol
Jane and Dave Sandelman have a crazy story. After living the corporate life, they opened an inn in southern Vermont that was one of the Top 10 Culinary Inns in America, pioneering farm-to-table dining. It all started at a cheese conference when Dave discovered that the physics of aging cheese and drying a flower are the same. Their first prototype sold quickly, and today, Cannatrol has shipped over 6,000 units to 15 countries. Their story is one of innovation, adaptability, and turning curiosity into a global business.
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Transcription
Dave Sandelman
Something that could happen very soon that’s going to totally change the cannabis industry and will have a significant impact on us, and that is the rescheduling from a schedule one to a schedule three. When you are growing and handling cannabis, you’re touching a schedule one product, and if you have business expenses, they’re not deductible. Nothing is deductible. You pay tax on everything once it gets rescheduled from one to a schedule three, the 280 e tax rule goes away, and everyone in the industry can start taking normal tax deductions.
Sam Roach-Gerber
From Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies, it’s Start Here, a podcast sharing the stories of active, aspiring and accidental entrepreneurs. Today, we sit down with husband-wife team, David and Jane Sandelman, who are revolutionizing the way we dry, cure, and store cannabis. Welcome, this is Sam Roach Gerber
David Bradbury
and David Bradbury,
Sam
recording from the Consolidated Communications Technology hub in downtown Burlington, Vermont. Jan and Dave, hey friends.
Jane Sandelman
Hi Sam.
Sam
Thanks for driving up.
David
Welcome. Thanks for visiting.
Jane
It’s great to be here.
Sam
Yay. So good to have you guys here. And yeah, it doesn’t, it seems like a really long time ago went down to visit you at your manufacturing place.
Jane
I think there might have been snow on the ground… it was cold.
Sam
So I know, right?
David
Wasn’t it the day Beyonce’s album came out? Because we listened to that in the car. A little Jolene action! Anyways, it was right around whenever that was
Sam
So we all know you well. We’re hoping that our audience doesn’t know you quite as well, so we can kind of dig in and learn more about you. I want to start by talking about you two first. How did you meet? And tell us about your careers early on.
Jane
Well, we are actually, in July, we’re celebrating our 31st wedding anniversary, so that’s kind of cool. And we met. We were actually at a set-up. Somebody met David. Friend of mine met David, and said, ‘You need to meet Jane.’ So we met, and it was love at first sight. And nine months later, we were married.
Sam
Oh my god,
David
awesome.
Jane
So, yeah, so we’re married 31 years, and we’ve done a lot of crazy stuff over those 31 years. And I always think about the fact that when we were engaged, we were white water rafting, we were wearing helmets, and I think that’s sort of been a theme, last 31 years, like always have your helmet ready.
Sam
I love that. Hell yeah. So tell us about your careers early on, maybe when you’re first married. What does that sort of first iteration look like?
Dave
We were both corporate.
Sam
I can’t picture it to be honest.
Dave
We were, and we, you know, ran the course through corporate and looked at each other one day and said, ‘I’m done with this, and what are we going to do for our next act?’ And I was involved in a startup that was part of the whole .com blow up. So, you know, the investors disappeared like cockroaches when the lights went on,
David
Why are you looking at me as an investor that way!
Dave
And so that’s when we said, ‘All right, let’s do something completely different. Where do we want to live?’ So we picked a couple of places. Vermont was one of them. And then it was like, ‘Okay, well, what are we going to do when we get to Vermont for work?’ And it was like, ‘All right, what industries?’ Hospitality? Okay, so called the broker,
Jane
Well dairy farming was the other,
Dave
yeah, which was just not an option
Jane
We didn’t want to be dairy farmers.
Dave
And called the broker and said, ‘Show us hospitality.’ So they drove us around, showing us inns. And I said, ‘Oh, I guess that might be a possibility.’ So they showed us an inn, it was abandoned. It had been bankrupt. It was sitting vacant, and the bank was sitting on it. And we said, ‘You know what, for a practice run, let’s put together a business plan and show it to a bank and see what their reaction is,’ figuring no bank, in their right mind is going to give the two of us money. We have no experience in running an inn or a restaurant. And also, there’s no business here. It’s just the building. It’s not like this a viable business. Well, I think it was less than a week
Jane
Yeah, a week.
Dave
The bank called us up and said, you’re the first people who gave us a 70 some odd page business plan to buying an inn. Usually it’s on the back of a napkin, so the money is yours. And that’s when we looked at each other and went, ‘Uh oh, what did we just do.’
Jane
Guess I gotta quit my job
Sam
Oh so you hadn’t quit your job yet?
Dave
No,
Sam
oh my god,
David
And this was what town in Vermont?
Dave
Wethersfield
Jane
So we quit our jobs, and we put our house on the market, and we moved to Vermont.
Sam
Oh my God,
Jane
Yeah, it was crazy.
Sam
Let’s remind so, Jane, your background’s in marketing, sales and marketing. Dave, engineering. Running an inn is like, you can’t even hit it with a dart, right?
Jane
Well, we, we really like to cook and entertain.
David
Did you grow up in big families? Like, I always feel like people that grew up with 10 siblings are more apt to be able to handle large environments,
Jane
No! A lot of friends, and we had a big house in New Jersey, and, you know, we had like, five bedrooms, and there were always people sleeping over. I don’t know, it was just,
Sam
there you go,
Jane
a party house.
Sam
Let’s formalize this and maybe charge people. Start charging people.
Jane
That’s what I said to David, I’m like, ‘we could probably charge for this.’
Sam
Yeah, oh my god, love that. . Okay, and running the inn, how did it go?
Dave
Well. So it started with, you know, closing in the bank hands us a ring of keys, and said, ‘Good luck.’ And we show up there and didn’t even know where a light switch was,
Sam
Oh my god
Dave
Yep. Started cleaning the place up. We had 30 days to get it open, because it was coming up on foliage, Labor Day weekend,
Sam
can’t miss out,
Dave
and couldn’t miss out. So we hit the ground running. Then we were doing the cooking and everything. We had a couple of family friends come up, give us a hand to get started, and away we went and then we were doing meals for guests. But we wouldn’t know is that the inn had a long history of guests in the restaurant. It had amazing goodwill that we had no idea. Literally, the first day we showed up and we were able to recover the phone number, the phone started ringing, having been closed for a year, people calling saying, ‘Can I make a dinner reservation?’
Sam
Wow,
Dave
I used to live down that neck of the woods, and there ain’t a heck of a lot of options too, right? So it’s great to know that they wanted you to succeed and be willing to show up.
Dave
And it was people who would come to the inn every year, and had been coming for year after year. So there were several that called that didn’t even know the inn had closed. You know, they were just calling for their annual visit. So that’s how we got started. And then, as it grew, we went out and recruited a chef, brought him in from California. We avoided the just the same crew, and went outside, and we eventually became one of the top 10 culinarians in America. When the photos directory guy would come to do the area and reviews, he would stay with us.
Sam
Oh my God, that’s the ultimate compliment.
Jane
So that was, that was always good. He was like, ‘So, where should I go, you know, tomorrow?’ So it was great,
Sam
amazing.
Jane
It was fun. We had a we had a really good time. Um, great chef. And it was, we spent 10 years doing that,
Sam
yeah.
Jane
So it was a lot of fun. There’s a lot of work,
Sam
totally.
Dave
And we were one of the first in Vermont to be farm to table. When we came up, we said, we want to supply support and use all local ingredients as much as possible. So this was 22 years ago, so when a lot of publications came to Vermont at the beginning of farm to table, they said, ‘Where should we go to check this out?’ So we wound up with quite a bit of press: PBS did a half-hour show on us called ‘Endless Feast.’ Emeril Lagasse did a show with us on local ingredients. So we got a bit of press along the way. But after 10 years, it was time to do something else.
Sam
That’s why you’re so good at getting press, that makes sense, you have experience there.
David
Wow.
Sam
Okay, so Dave, you told me this a few months ago, and I didn’t realize how perfectly running the Inn at Wethersfield dovetails into Cannatroll. So can you tell the story of sort of how you got because
Dave
The accident?
Sam
I mean, it look, it looks on the surface like what? This makes no sense. But when you kind of tell the inside story, it makes perfect sense.
Dave
Yeah. So it goes back to the farm to table, and my background being in controls engineering, and basically I took 10 years off serving people scrambled eggs for breakfast. We heard from local cheese makers that they were having issues with their cheese aging rooms, what they called their ‘caves’, and asked if I can help. So came up with some concepts for control strategies to accomplish what they want, and developed the control for cheese aging rooms, and did one to a local cheese maker, and then it went to another and another. And then people started seeing this and said, ‘Hey, can I sell this?’ So what was a hobby at the end to keep my mind busy, building controls for cheese makers, then became a hobby one after we sold the inn to continue making controls for cheese makers, which are now throughout North America, typically ACS, American Cheese Society, usually the top ribbon takers, first, second, third, number one, Best in Show, one if not all of them have our technology for their cheese aging rooms, and that eventually was adopted to meet charcuterie, dry aged steaks. And then seeing the emergence of the cannabis industry, it was just happening out in Colorado, realized the physics are the same for aging cheese and drying charcuterie as it is for drying a flower. You want to get what’s called the free available water out of the flour so it’s shelf stable, and mold can’t grow. Because the mold grows on the free available water. Once you remove that free available water, you got shelf stability. So we built a prototype, and we brought it to [inaudible] in Vermont, put it on the table, someone bought it. So we built a couple of more boxes. Sold those. We’ve now shipped them to
Sam
15 countries, I think over 6000 units worldwide, just the little units,
Dave
and that was a proof of concept for, ‘Will this work for cannabis flower?’ The intent was to do big commercial systems. So once we knew we had a viable technology for drying and curing cannabis flower, then we started building large systems for large grow facilities. So that’s how we sort of wound up where we are today, completely by accident. Big systems have been now shipped to Thailand, Uruguay,
David
amazing, amazing. So you’re based in North Springfield, yep. So maybe just describe the company today – physical plant, what you’ve done with your workforce, and I don’t know why you get out of bed every morning and keep going after it, instead of making scrambled eggs?
Jane
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the best thing about it is that it’s about an eight minute commute from our house to the plant, so that’s that was, like, the first priority. But we bought a building in North Springfield, in an industrial park that pretty much had gone out of use. It was, there was a guy in there, but he wasn’t doing anything. And it was, it was a great building and had great bones. So it was just Dave and I, and we had, I don’t know, two or three employees, I think at that point when we bought the building, and we bought it and we started renovating it, and now we have, let’s see, two years later, we have 20 employees, and we also have two remote employees, one in Jersey and one in Colorado. So the business has grown. It’s just unbelievable. And the people we have working for us are great. Everybody’s other than our remotes, are all you know, local to Chester or Springfield or Wethersfield. So everybody’s right in the immediate area, and there are people with amazing skills right in our neighborhood. So we try to find those people and bring them in. And it’s been great. We have an amazing team right now.
Dave
And we made, what, best in Vermont?
Jane
Oh, yeah, we were named among the best places to work in Vermont this year, which was kind of cool. You know, for a small company, it’s hard,
Sam
and a new company, right?
Jane
We give health benefits. We have 401K with a contribution. Profit sharing.
David
You got great hoodies and awesome caps too. The ball cap is a favorite one in my family.
Jane
Yeah, our swag is among the best in Vermont. I like to think,
Sam
yeah, I can attest to that for sure.
Jane
Yeah, of course, you’re wearing a VCET sweatshirt. What’s that about?
Sam
No Cannatroll garb today
Jane
But it’s great. I’m really proud of our team and everybody you know now, we’re starting to get people who potentially will go back to school, like our bookkeepers, going back to school and getting some more education. And we’re starting to encourage that kind of thing among our staff.
Sam
You know, I mentioned we came down and visited a couple months ago, and I think our whole team was just blown away, not just by the operation and how beautiful it is, and, you know, the productivity that’s going on, but by your team. And one of the things that struck me was it feels very much like a learning environment and where people can ask questions and be inquisitive, and that is so rare, especially like, you know, these people are manufacturing something, right? Like, it’s tedious work, and here they are asking, I remember he was asking you a pretty specific question about the company, which has nothing to do with what he’s doing there on the line. And it just was such a powerful moment for me to say, this is a place where people go and they can learn, they can take steps in their career, they feel part of something, and that’s really special.
Jane
Thanks. I feel like Dave and I both grew up in corporate, and we’ve seen a lot of bad management. And I really felt like at this point in my career, if I was gonna have a company and I was gonna run a company, if Dave and I were gonna run a company, we were gonna do it right, yeah,
Dave
and have fun.
Sam
What do you always say, Dave? Pay the bills. Have fun. Make money. In that order,
Jane
in that order,
David
Wow. So I wanted to make sure people understand you’re a technology company, serving specialty foods, cheese and meats, but in cannabis and someday other leafy green or other agricultural products. Talk a little bit about the technology and sort of your IP path, and how important that is, coming from your your environmental controls, basically, right? I mean, you’re almost an H-VAC specialist, right for stuff that grows, in managing vapor and water. Just, how do you think about how important a patent’s been to this? Like, you know, is it a tech company, an ag company, a services company?
Dave
It’s more of a tech company where we’re applying this technology that was originally developed for aging cheese. And what we’re learning more and more about is the science behind it, and that’s what’s really exciting, is particularly in the cannabis industry, where it’s been underground, you have what are called ‘legacy growers.’ People have been growing for 20, 30, years, and they really didn’t have access to science. They would do some crazy rituals, and they would swear by those rituals, because they got good results. And what we’re doing is we’re getting into the science. What was it about that ritual that you were doing? Was there any science behind it that you weren’t aware of, or was it just a ritual? And so we’re really involved with some great people on the science side now, with application to the technology. We’re working with the Cannabis Research Coalition, which is a great group of people. And recently, we met some folks out of Humboldt University in Berlin. And that has nothing to do with Humboldt, California. This is the real Humboldt Germany. And in Berlin is and they have an amazing research facility,
David
great, and that market just opened up.
Dave
Yes, they legalized recreational cannabis in Germany. We were there for 4.20 on a river boat cruise. They just had the ICBC International Cannabis Business Conference, which was quite the party. And now we have someone set up for distribution in Germany, and we’re shipping all the time to Germany now.
David
Wow. How many patents Have you filed over the years? Not necessarily with this company
Dave
Over the years, I think it was about 19 patents
Jane
Before this, before Vaportrol, I think it was 19. And now
Dave
We’ve got two US patents issued, and there is two applications pending,
Dave
and we’re just now getting all the patents in various countries. So we then applied and got through the PCT, which is this Treaty Organization that countries in the EU and other countries follow. So once the PCT approves the patent and says, ‘Yeah, this is legit. This is a good patent’
David
recognized elsewhere
Dave
other countries.. you still have to apply for a patent in that country, but you don’t have to go through the technical steps of that
David
so the core premises, through your inventions and history, you’re able to create these units that really manages, you know, water or vapor on something that grows on the surface varied by species. So you can, you can optimize it for whatever your results, desired results are,
Dave
Right. It’s about drying. And, you know, it’s cold water activity. Pharmaceutical industries used it for decades. The food industry uses it also for decades, and it’s about free available water, and they want to make sure when you open up that box of crackers, they’re not rancid. And what will cause that is free available water, because then microbials and bacteria can grow. Once they get rid of that free available water and get that product to a target water activity. It’s shelf stable. So we understand that the FDA is currently running work on shelf stability of cannabis, and using our equipment as a reference standard.
Jane
Yeah, we’re working with LSU, and they’re doing the shelf stability work for the FDA.
David
You know, Sam, remember we were contemplating an investment in the company. It was not only are they awesome people, but it really had to do with, could this be a sort of platform, technology, that just brought safety, brought quality, brought costs, brought efficiencies into the market regardless, and sounds like you’re off doing it.
Dave
Well, there’s about something that could happen very soon that’s going to totally change the cannabis industry and will have a significant impact on us, and that is the rescheduling from a schedule one to a schedule three. And there is a tax code called 280 E, and most people don’t know this, but when you are growing and handling cannabis, you’re touching a schedule one product, and if you have business expenses, they’re not deductible. Nothing is deductible. You pay tax on everything. Once it gets rescheduled from one to a schedule three, the 280 E tax rule goes away, and everyone in the industry can start taking normal tax deductions, which is going to free up a huge amount of cash and also give motivation for these people to spend money so they can take the deduction on capital equipment, and we are ready and prepared.
David
I wish our listeners could see the smiles on both Jane and David’s faces and Sam’s, so,
Sam
yeah, it seems like policy has really been working out in your favor.
Jane
Well, we’ll see. One of the other things about the rescheduling is that it’s going to bring everybody into line from a regulatory standpoint, I think the FDA is going to get a lot more involved and start demanding water activity testing and things like that.
Dave
I mean, the Wild West days like anything are just again. You have to mature for safety, for pharmaceutical grade, for trust and all the rest and and I think that you know we, when we look at teams to make investments in, we look for undeniable founders that bring a specific insight that helps unlock this inevitable market. Boy, you hit all three. Thanks making Sam look smart.
Sam
Yeah, right. Thanks guys
Jane
I think I called Sam and it was like, ‘Oh, we need to get together.’ Yeah, we hit it off right away, you and I.
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Sam
Speaking of the Wild West, I’d love for you guys to talk a little bit about your work with the Cannabis Research Coalition, because I know that’s a big part of what you’ve been doing.
Jane
Yeah, they’re a great group, and we’ve been doing, now we’re doing some long-term research with them on shelf stability, which I think is going to bring a whole lot of insight into the industry, looking at preserving the quality of flower over time. It’s going to help people ride out market shifts, be able to deliver a much better quality product, much more consistent product, to the end user. But they’re a great group of people. They’ve already done a first round of research, where they discovered that our technology preserves trichome integrity, which means, in our language, when you look at a cannabis flower under a microscope, there’s like a little bulb in there, and that’s where all the good stuff is. And if you rupture that during the post harvest process, it all goes away. So what our technology is doing is it’s curing that little bulb and making it nice and strong so you can’t break it until it’s time to consume it. And it’s, our technology is delivering that quality on a very normal, I guess, normal drying and curing, you find about 35% of the Trichome heads are ruptured. And with our technology, about 2%.
Sam
Oh my god, wow.
Jane
Yeah, so it’s huge. And so that’s the kind of work, really groundbreaking stuff no one’s ever looked at.
David
That’s what we just go see your backyard and just shout, say, ‘Oh my god. Can you believe you figured this out? Like… really cool.’
Dave
It’s interesting that you raised that because we were, anecdotally, everyone’s like, ‘This is some of the best cannabis I’ve ever produced, using your technology for drying and curing.’ So then it was like, ‘Why? What’s going on?’ And we contacted several different consultant experts to try and get into the why’s, and all of them failed, until we came up with the Cannabis Research Coalition, who knew how to handle the samples so that during handling of the samples, they weren’t affecting the outcome. And that’s what led us to the CRC, and now we continue work with them, and they’re just an amazing group of people.
Jane
Yeah, they’re really creative. They come up with really interesting concepts. They understand what we’re doing and what we’re trying to achieve. So they come back to us and say, you know, ‘If we looked at these three parameters, it would really give you, you know, a great view of the technology.’ So it’s a great partnership, thrilled to be working with them
Sam
It gives you validation, right? Like, it’s great to have that kind of third party.
Jane
Well, it’s great to go out and tell everybody that, you know, we make great flower, you know, and use our technology. And, you know, everybody’s like, ‘yeah, and do you have the data?’
Dave
Yeah, and the guy at Humboldt University in Berlin, we introduced them to CRC, and they really hit it off, and are really excited. Because what’s interesting is here, it’s federally illegal, so the Cannabis Research Coalition is sort of their own thing, you know, trying to raise funding. They now can’t go to federal government, right?
David
That’s not a non-profit you can give to
Dave
Right, where on the other side, you’re dealing with a legitimate in Berlin, legitimate university that you know can get funding and is doing some amazing research. So it could be a really interesting collaboration.
David
Can you talk a little bit about your customers, like, who calls up or orders and you drop ship units to, I mean, no names, but just give us a sense, you know, because you what was it? You said you shipped to 16 countries or 15 countries.
Jane
So the little units, it’s a really wide range of people.
Dave
It’s the bell curve.
Jane
It is. It really is. I’m we have everyone from grandma growers to young guys who are just starting out. We get calls from novices all the time that are, it’s their first grow, and they made the investment and all the equipment, and they only wanted the best, so they got a Cannatroll, and they call us, like, three or four times a day to check in. And that’s fine. We have, we have a great customer service team, and they will sit on the phone with people. And then we get season growers who are like, ‘You know what? This is really changing the game for me.’ So for the home unit, we see that. On the commercial side, I think our primary customer, I would call them an artisan producer. It’s not the big, giant producers at the moment. Right now, it’s that mid-tier who really wants to deliver quality. They want to really have a quality brand that people recognize, and they want to deliver consistent product. That’s who we’re really talking to on the commercial side. It was seeing the industry follow what, once upon a time was the beer industry, where you had the Budweisers and the Pabsts mass produced low cost beer, and then came along craft beer, and that same thing is evolving in the cannabis industry.
Jane
And the consumers want better flower. They really do. Yeah, not everybody wants just the highest THC,
Sam
right?
Jane
You know, do you go into a liquor store and ask for the highest per alcohol? I don’t know Sam,
Sam
You know me!
Jane
But you know, if you think about it that way, it’s like, is it just about, ‘How high can I get, or is it about the entourage effect of the cannabis and what it does for the body?’ So I think consumers are becoming more educated, and they want terpene profiles, they want the entourage effect. So there’s a lot more education
David
And they want that consistent, yes, which has been the challenge here
Jane
You got it.
Sam
And I think too, with like legalization availability, all of a sudden, you used to be like, whatever you can get, right. But now people have choices, and they’re because of that, there’s the education piece, right? They’re learning more about it. I think humans love things they consume, right? They love to learn about food and beverage and cannabis, and so I think it just makes sense, that your product is helping people kind of get to that point of going from whatever I can get to, ‘Here’s really what I want, and here’s how I get it.’
Jane
It’s really, really fun working with home growers. It’s cool because they’re really passionate.
Sam
Yeah. So one of the things I wanna talk about is, you know, just in the context of Vermont, North Springfield doesn’t seem like a very easy place to hire people and live, but you guys are having a pretty good run here of hire hiring awesome people and getting them to stick around. So one question is, ‘Are you hiring? And for what?’ And, tell us a little bit more about kind of workforce in your area of Vermont, and how can the rest of Vermont help support you? What are some of the misnomers you hear? Just love to get your take on that.
Dave
Well, now we’re looking for upper management, you know, ops types of people. High level ops people, because some of our components we’re bringing in from China, and we’d like to start doing those components here in North America as well. So, you know, it’s bringing those manufacturing skills, that’s what we’re looking for, and to do more of the coordination of the day to day ops that’s going on, and that could lead to a COO into a CEO, you know, depending on the fit with the right person. So that’s currently what we’re doing right now. As far as trying to recruit, you know, the next level. As far as on the floor, making the boxes and stuff like that, things are pretty good. But with the rescheduling, that can change overnight. You know, there’s a 30,000 square foot building across the street that might be something we have to move into and staff it up with, you know, the outcome of rescheduling, but we’ll see.
David
Yeah, I mean, honestly, we worry about businesses we’re involved in, you know, for different reasons. And I think our, our worry factor is just huge growth, really suddenly, and meeting the the demand. Because you do have the best product, proven data, and no doubt, without a doubt, we know it’ll come. But like, gosh, too little business is a problem, and too much is also a challenge,
Jane
Yeah, always, always. But, you know, there’s, there’s actually quite a bit of technology where we are, and people working, you know, there’s quite a few companies
Dave
in the upper valley,
Jane
in the Upper Valley, and Springfield, back in the day, it was a, you know, precision manufacturing. So I would love to see Springfield developing back into light manufacturing. I think that that’s a real future. You know, what we see happening with Brick, the Black River Innovation Campus. I’ll tell you, with Springfield, we were, we were in a restaurant downtown last night, and it was packed. That’s awesome, and that’s a great sign, packed with young people who are coming into town
David
The day we went with you for lunch, we couldn’t get into the spot.
Jane
Yep, yep. So it’s happening. It’s slow, you know, it’s a slow boat to turn, but I think it’s coming. I really do, and I’m really encouraged about Brick. I think that’s going to bring a lot to the town as well.
Sam
So what can folks like in Chittenden County do to help support arts Springfield?
Jane
Come visit. You don’t need a passport. Come on down south. Seriously, go below Rt 4 without a passport.
Sam
Love it.
Jane
Yeah, I think the Southern Vermont has a lot to offer. We really do. And I think sometimes it gets passed by. Everyone’s like, ‘Oh, we’re going to Burlington. Going to Burlington.’ It’s like, ‘Oh, come, come visit us.’
Sam
Stay a while!
David
Awesome. So as you look at your growth strategy ahead, you know, is it world domination, or how, like, how do you define how big you aspire to be? Or do, you know, maybe it’s unfair to even think about that,
Jane
World domination is probably, you know, that’s not a bad thing. Probably a little aggressive for us. But we, you know, we’re really excited about our move into Europe. I think that represents a significant opportunity for us. We’re seeing opportunity in Latin America. So we’re kind of taking it one step at a time. Um, I like to think of it as controlled growth. Sometimes it doesn’t feel that way. We’re growing so fast, but, I think we just got to see where it goes. I think we’re going to wind up in other industries. We’re already dabbling in other industries. So there’s, there’s huge opportunity for us.
Sam
Has this surprised you?
Jane
Yes, yeah. I think we are truly accidental entrepreneurs.
Sam
Yeah, this was supposed to be a fun little side hustle, right?
Jane
Yeah, yeah. It was a retirement gig. So put my whole life, our whole life, has been like a series of accidental entrepreneurs.
Sam
Keep those hard hats on.
David
I can’t wait for their books, Sam.
Sam
I know right,
David
Like, the chapters.
Sam
So especially given the speed with which you’re growing, I’d love to talk a little bit about how you’ve approached financing your company. Obviously, Dave and I are relatively familiar here, but, you know, thinking about other small but quickly growing companies in Vermont, I think we can all learn a lot from hearing other people’s stories. So I’d just love to hear how did you think you were going to do it, and what, how has it really played out? Any regrets, or, you know, things that you would have done differently?
Jane
Well, we’re lucky to have VCET, obviously. You guys have been an amazing resource. The Dudley Fund is another Vermont-based fund, and you and Dudley are our only institutional investors. The rest are friends and family and angels. So that’s huge. We probably would not have gone out for financing had it not been for COVID.
Sam
Mmm
Jane
So, you know, once COVID hit, we couldn’t get parts.
David
Right
Jane
And it was like, we have to go out and we have to build inventory, we have to buy everything we can get our hands on,
Sam
because you were bootstrapping at the beginning.
Jane
Everything was bootstrapped.
Sam
I remember when we very first talked, I you were like, ‘Yeah, we’re working in the building now.’ I’m like, ‘Well, how are you’, like, ‘well, we’re gonna just buy it I think.’ I’m like, ‘Oh my god,’
David
We’re just gonna use our customers money which is…
Jane
So we, you know, we had to buy parts, and we had to buy a lot of them, so whatever.
Sam
And wherever you could get them
Jane
And just didn’t have the cash,
Dave
Because up until COVID, the parts we used were on the shelf the distributors. So we build 10 units, ship them, and then order parts for 10 more. They literally came the next day or second day, and we built 10 more.
Sam
Life was so simple,
Dave
it was easy, and then all of a sudden they’re like, ‘No, we’re out of stock and we won’t get those for another 52 weeks.’
Sam
Oh, my God,
Dave
Now what?
Jane
So that’s, that’s what pushed us out to go get financing. So it was a it was a real education for us, because we had never done anything like that before in any of our other jobs or worlds. We had always financed all our own fun and games. And so I’m really, we have now, I consider VCET, Dudley, the people that invested us in us as friends and family, I feel like they’re great resources for us now. So I think it was a really smart move for us at the end of the day, and I’m glad we did it. But it was, it was hard. It was, it was a big decision. You know? It was like,
David
And it’s a choppy, opaque kind of process, right? Because you reveal a little bit of yourself and take a risk with every conversation you had, and including us, everybody has an opinion.
Jane
Isn’t that the truth?
David
Right? And you got to sort of sort through it all and see if you find signal in there,
Jane
Yes
David
And mostly find people you want to be in business with.
Jane
I think that’s the trick. The trick is, don’t if I could give one piece of advice to any startup is, if it doesn’t feel right, don’t take the money.
Sam
Yeah,
Jane
like, do not get in bed with people you don’t like,
Sam
Yep,
Jane
you got you need to hit it off and feel comfortable with those people, because you’re going to be with them for a long, long time, and you got to trust them.
Sam
And I think that’s Part of why, you know, if you’re able to bootstrap in the beginning, it is so important, because you built that foundation, right? And I think even when you and I first talked, you were, like, thinking about maybe taking capital. It wasn’t even the point of our conversation. And of course, I’m like, you know, drooling over here, being like, you’re doing what and where and how, and oh my god,
David
And I’m like Sam, you brought a cannabis business here, I was like, what? We’re not in the retail business.
Sam
Dave, not a cannabis guy. Like side note, I’m like ‘Okay, so ignore the name of the company, just for a second. Let me tell you about Jane and Dave.”
David
It was a master class in like, how to approach somebody with a new idea.
Jane
It was great, but that really, it’s just, God, don’t just take money.
David
Yeah, well, hey, Sam, I was thinking just now, you know, we put, over the years with our two evergreen venture funds, we’ve put close to $7 million into Vermont companies, maybe 36, 37 companies, and yours was the only one where we wrote a first check, and then before the round was even closed, we came back and wrote another because you were executing the vision, the operations, and it was, again, it’s the only time we’ve ever done that. And I’m upset we’re not putting more money in. I think I told you that, yeah, you’ll be the first one I call. If we do another round,
Jane
you’ll be the first one to get the call.
Sam
It’s a deal.
David
As long as it’s at the last price, I’m good!
Jane
Sorry, can’t, can’t confirm that.
Sam
One question I want to ask quickly, too, is, while we’re kind of on that subject of like doing business, people you want to do business with, tell us about how you’ve built your advisory board and just how that has served you as a company. Because I think some founders sort of struggle with how and why to do that.
Jane
We got really lucky. Well, you know, what is it, the harder we work, the luckier we get?
Dave
Yeah, where people go, ‘Oh, you’re so lucky.’
Jane
But our advisory board is made up almost all of people that we’ve worked with in the past. Dave and I have the advantage of being a little bit older and having a little bit more corporate experience, so we just have more people in our world.
Sam
Yeah,
Jane
So we brought in the people that whose opinions we really respected,
Sam
yeah, people you would have called up no matter what
Jane
right people that we have dinner with and who we really trust and who we talk about business with anyway. So these are people who you know, like, we have a friend who’s an absolute expert in sales organizations and putting together a sales organization, it’s like, ‘Hey, you want to be on our advisory board? This is what we need.’ Same thing with marketing. We had a friend who was just a marketing wizard, and you know, she happened to have worked for Martha Stewart, and it was like, ‘Great, come on board.’ So we got really lucky with our advisory board, and it is really important to get good advisors.
Sam
Yeah.
Jane
Even before you put your board of directors together, you need advisors that you can talk to who will tell you the truth.
Sam
Right. Yeah. And I think the key there, the mistake I see a lot of companies making is they pick an advisory board of the most impressive LinkedIn profiles they can find, right? But it’s not actually people that pick up the phone when they call, and I think that’s way more important, that it’s someone that you can count on when you need them.
Jane
Absolutely. I think it’s important to have some people on your board that are industry experts and are recognized in the industry, to give you some credibility and advice in the industry, obviously, but for some of the just down and dirty stuff, get someone you can talk to.
David
It’s really, really great. What have you learned if you had to start this, this business over, what would you do differently?
Dave
I don’t know. Every day is a new adventure.
Jane
I have no idea.
Sam
Yeah, if you could start this week over.
Jane
If I could start today over.
Sam
Well it is, you know, your company is changing so quickly, and your industry is changing so quickly. I feel like every time we talk or catch up via email or phone, it’s like, there’s 10 things that I’m like, ‘What! You didn’t tell me that last time!’. You’re like, ‘Well, it happened yesterday.’ I’m like, ‘Oh my gosh.’ So we’re Dave and I are just really enjoying being along for the ride with you two, and we’re so, you know, humbled by what you’re doing.
David
It’s a real high.
Jane
It’s fun, it’s fun, it’s awesome. It’s a high.
Sam
It is. Oh, good, good stuff. We had to get
Jane
a couple couple of cannabis jokes in there. Is it almost 4.20?
Sam
Alright, so our final magic wand question. I’ll give you each an answer, because I’m kind generous person here. If you could change one thing about Vermont today, what would you change?
Dave
It would be access to more people and have availability to housing for those more people as we bring them into the area.
Sam
Can’t argue with that.
Jane
I have to agree with Dave. I think giving people affordable living options, it’s a big issue, getting people to relocate.
Sam
Yeah, yeah,
Jane
big issue. If we could fix that, golden
Sam
game changer!
Jane
You hear that, Montpelier?
David
Yeah, listen in. and keep saying it too, because folks thinks it’s primarily a Northwest Vermont challenge, and it’s not, it’s everywhere.
Jane
It’s everywhere.
David
Thank you so much, Dave and Jane for taking time to be with us today. This has been Start Here, a podcast sharing your stories of active, aspiring, and accidental entrepreneurs. This series is supported by the Vermont Technology Council and Consolidated Communications. Let’s get back to work.
