Erin Fagnant / KSV Agency

In this episode, we sit down with Erin Fagnant, a powerhouse in marketing and leadership. From her days working with the Red Sox to becoming a partner at KSV, Erin’s journey is packed with insight. She shares the unfiltered truth about what it takes to run and sustain a thriving agency through both the highs and the lows. Erin’s story of resilience and grit will leave you inspired. Whether you’re passionate about marketing, focused on keeping your business strong, or curious about the inner workings of a nearly 50-year-old company, this conversation is for you. Tune in!

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TRANSCRIPTION

Erin Fagnant
One of the things that was really freeing was being able to fully face your fear. We knew what the worst case scenario was, and that was this place closes, and we have to go get jobs somewhere else, right? And as soon as we were able to recognize that, it was a bit empowering. And so we went all in, and then we just went on a winning spree.

Sam Roach Gerber
From Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies, it’s Start Here, a podcast sharing the stories of active, aspiring, and accidental entrepreneurs. Today, we sit down with Erin Fagnant, partner and CEO at KSV, the marketing and advertising agency that has taken their commitment to sustainability to the next level. Welcome. This is Sam Roach Gerber

David Bradbury
and Dave Bradbury,

SRG
recording from the Consolidated Communications Technology hub in downtown Burlington, Vermont. Hi, Erin,

EF
Hello.

DB
Welcome

EF
Thank you for having me.

SRG
We are so happy you’re here. We somehow finagled you for both Female Founders and the podcast now, which just like, big old box check on that one. I’m stoked.

David Bradbury
I don’t know that we’ve done that more than two other times,

SRG
A handful of times. I took the momentum. I was like, ‘Hey, now that you know I’m already in your inbox here,’

DB
Right, right. You got the trust, so let’s not blow it.

SRG
Yeah, yeah, I know, for real.

EF
That was smart, good call.

SRG
Right? I figured I’m like, ‘If I’m gonna get her, I gotta get her now.’ I wanna talk about you. Tell me a little bit about your early career, and did you really work for the Red Sox?

EF
I did really work for the Red Sox, but before that, and how I got into the Red Sox is I worked for the Los Angeles Dodgers.

SRG
NO way!

EF
Yes. So I went to school at Ithaca College out in New York, and majored in TV and radio. And they have a program out in Los Angeles, you get to go spend a semester out there, there’s a campus. And then all of these connections to help get you either internships or jobs at different organizations. And I really, I’m an athlete, I love sports, and so I was really drawn to the Dodgers opportunity, and they hired me in their advertising department, which was really fun. And so I got to really get a peek behind the curtain there, and also learn that advertising and marketing is so much bigger than what we think it is, and it’s really about creating an experience and creating connection and relationships and all these different elements. And it was really cool experience. So that’s how I got into baseball and then came back to the East Coast, and when I graduated, I started working for the Red Sox in their advertising department and TV group.

SRG
That is so cool

David Bradbury
National and American League, old foes, wow

SRG
This is why it’s so important for colleges and universities to create these opportunities for students. It’s like, ‘How would you have ever had the skills or known that you enjoyed that, right?’ I mean, that’s that’s so cool,

EF
Yeah, I think what’s so interesting is that we think when we’re going to go into school, or when we that we know exactly what we’re going to do, and there’s so much of figuring out where you’re going to go and what you’re good at and what you enjoy in that journey. And so, you know, even thinking about where I started and where I am now, you wouldn’t have necessarily thought that that’s where I was going, so…

SRG
It’s so true. And I had a similar experience. I studied communications as well, and had got a PR internship, and, like, realized I had no idea what PR was until I was actually doing it. And I was like, ‘Oh, this is not a fit for me at all.’ But I think that happens a lot with especially advertising, marketing, communications. You don’t…there’s an idea of what you think it entails, but often it’s very different than that.

EF
Exactly. So I have always been a really creative person, and so when I went into my major and where I thought I was going, so we had a big TV department at my high school, I was really fortunate.

SRG
Cool

EF
There was a whole technical school there, and so I spent a lot of time in the creative side of things, which is how I got into TV in college. But what I really learned while I was there, that while I was a creative person, I was much better at sort of setting the vision than maybe executing on the vision. There was other people who were much better at that. And so you kind of start to see the places where your strengths lie, and then also how to pair your skill sets with other people’s strengths to come together in a really unique way. So that’s sort of,

DB
That’s really great. I mean, you’re right. You don’t know what you don’t know. And I think that’s where those internships, or the co op programs. Like I didn’t want to be a stockbroker because I had to wear socks, and I wouldn’t have known that unless I had spent a semester trying that. I’m not opposed to socks, I just didn’t want it at that stage of life,

SRG
Do you not wear socks at VCET? I feel like I’ve heard you say this before, and I was kinda confused about that.

DB
No at the brokerage, it was my last day, it was awful, like they were like, took us out for tequila, and they’re like, and they handed me a box of socks. So they’re like, ‘You got this beautiful suit, but you don’t wear socks.’ I’m like, ‘Well, you know, that’s how we roll.”

EF
You never know what those deal breakers are gonna be.

DB
You never know, right? But anyway, enough about me, this is about you.

SRG
Enough about Dave.

DB
So, can you give us a little history lesson on KSV, sort of its origins, how you came to it, and you and your partners?

EF
Yeah, so KSV was founded in 1977 by Linda Kelleher.

SRG
Oh, I didn’t realize it had been that long,

EF
Yeah, so I started on South Champlain street, I believe a building there, and it was just a one woman shop. She had actually been offered a role at another design shop at the time, and they offered her just like this embarrassingly low salary. And she was like, ‘Actually, I think I’m just gonna go do my own thing.’ And now it’s grown into what it is today. And so I came to the company in 2011. I was in Boston, and we had two young children, and decided to move to Vermont because we wanted a yard. And you know, what better reason to move to this incredible state? And I had one connection to the state of Vermont, and she and I were chatting, and she was like, ‘Hey, I used to work for this agency. They happen to have an opening. You should check them out.’ And so I applied and drove up here. My car broke down right off the Richmond exit.

DB
Of course it did, of course it did

EF
So she came to pick me up. I’m changing into my clothes in her car on the highway.

SRG
Oh my God,

EF
And walking in, but it just felt like such a great fit. The people were incredible. I had a lot of travel experience at the time, and the opening was on the Sugarbush account, and I’m a big skier, so that was a dream come true

DB
Dream come true – backyard and ski pass, boom, what more do you need right?

EF
Exactly.

SRG
That’s crazy. That’s so cool.

EF
Yeah. And then, and then I called my husband, and I was like, ‘I guess we’re moving to Vermont.’ My partners grew up in Vermont, so they were already connected in the community. Rachel had been at the Agency for several years. She, funny enough, also had a stint in Boston. I feel like we all take a little stop over in some major city before we come and Tucker, who’s absolutely incredible, he was actually Rachel and my assistant early on

SRG
No way…

EF
Which is really funny. So we like inspiring. We like to joke about that with him. I think what how that partnership came together is because of those early years where we learned to, you know, these are your people that you go to when you’re having a challenge, or that you can rely on, or that you just have fun with through the chaos. We used to start every day with a dance party in Rachel’s office, just like,

SRG
Stop

EF
Get the day going.

SRG
Why don’t we do that?

DB
What are we doing? We have two Hip Hop squad captains from UVM’s team.

EF
That sounds like a missed opportunity.

Sam RG
To be clear, that is not me and Dave. That would be Nicole and Ema.

DB
Yeah, exactly. I’d be the main video.

SRG
In case there was any question, yeah, definitely not us

EF
I would like to see that, though, I feel like a nice choreographed routine,

SRG
as long as the cameras are off, I’d consider it

EF
Okay, yeah,

David Bradbury
Alright, we’ll try that. All right. So you dance in the mornings,

EF
yes,

DB
people you trust and got to know,

EF
yes.

DB
And then, how did it, how did the business transfer come about?

EF
Well, that is a traumatic story, so I

SRG
Thank God, we’re finally getting into it, I knew it. Let’s get juicy.

EF
Funny enough, I thought I would never be a small business owner. So when I was in high school and college, I worked for my brother in law. He owns a construction company in New Hampshire, and when you see behind the curtain, you realize everything that goes into running a business. And I was like, ‘Nope, not for me.’ And so here I am owning a business. And what happened is we had a really large client that we lost very unexpectedly in 2019 and that resulted in us losing more than 50% of our staff.

SRG
Ooof

EF
It was a devastating

DB
Nice way to go into covid.

EF
Yeah it was a devastating, devastating blow to the company, one to just lose so much talent and people who had been with the agency for decades. And also just the uncertainty that that brings too. As part of those losses, we also lost our entire leadership team. So at the time, I was the account director of that account, and the director of the account service. Rachel oversaw project management, Tucker oversaw strategy, but our entire executive leadership team was gone, and so kind of overnight, I found myself as the managing director of this agency and our owners came to us and asked, ‘Do you want to take this on?’ And I was like, ‘Absolutely not, no.’

And then we took a moment and we sat back. And I think one of the things that was really freeing was being able to fully face your fear. We knew what the worst case

SRG
I was gonna say, it already happened

EF
Right, yeah, we knew we were looking at it, we knew what the worst case scenario was, and that was a freeing moment of, well, that’s the worst. The worst is that this place closes and we have to go get jobs somewhere else, right? And as soon as we were able to recognize that, it was a bit empowering. And so we spent a few days, we rented a space, and did some workshops, and we were like, ‘Well, what, what could this mean to us?’ Like, ‘What would be the value in it to us?’ And we were, at the end of it, we’re like, ‘Well, why not,’ right? Like, ‘What do we have to lose?’ Like, ‘This could be such a great thing that we could do together.’ And so we went all in, and then we just went on a winning spree. And I think it’s, there’s something really cool about when your back is against the wall. And I’m just a really competitive person too. I just love to win. And so, you know, so we just dug in and we were winning, and then we were winning, and then we were winning, and then you’d start to get these moments of confidence, and you’re like, ‘Maybe we can do this.’ And also, in these moments, you see people rise to the occasion in ways that you didn’t even know was possible for them. And so we were seeing our staff, like leadership qualities and new skill sets that they didn’t have the opportunity to showcase previously. And it was a, it was a really cool moment. So out of this, like really tart, awful experience, we got to be reborn.

SRG
Wow.

EF
Which is cool.

SRG
That is so cool. And do you feel like part of that, like, winning streak, obviously, like the momentum of, like you said, having your back ends the wall, but like, at that point, did you try to, like, diversify more because you had lost such a big client? Like, I’m curious how your strategy shifted.

EF
Certainly in the beginning… you are just looking to get what you can get to be able to survive

DB
Gotta make a number right, that’s behind the curtain of owning a business

EF
Exactly. But I think what was interesting is we were, our criteria shifted, so maybe with smaller projects that we might try, or a different area that we might try, and we also, you know, it was a lot more test and learn of how to go out and get the business in those places. Because part of that is our new business person was gone too, so we were doing all of this for the first time. But yes, from a diversification standpoint, that is a key part of our strategy, is to really focus on ensuring, from a new business perspective, that we’re always diversifying our revenue stream, because that’s not a scenario we would like to experience again. Certainly, there are wins and losses in business, and there will be them to come, but we don’t want anything like that

DB
You’ve got a portfolio of work now

EF
Exactly

SRG
Wow,

DB
Wow

SRG
Yeah, that’s such a cool story. And I love that you recognize that, you know, that kind of all hands on deck mentality, you know, people really shine when they have to right? It’s like, ‘Well, if I don’t do this, it’s not going to get done, so I kind of have to figure it out.’ And I’m sure that was a really kind of a breath of fresh air for everyone in the organization.

EF
It was and people have opportunities and are in roles now that maybe they wouldn’t have had if this had never happened to our organization.

DB
Yeah, was just gonna ask, like, I’m really curious about that. Were they freed from maybe being too specialized, right, in a larger corporate kind of structure? Or were they feeling like owners as part of this? We’re all in this boat here, right? And grabbing an oar for survival and in the future, like, or just some other factor of the time, that’s really amazing.

EF
Yeah, I think a little bit of both. I think when you’re in a large organization, you know, and structure is good and important, but there might not have been as clear of a path for people. And I felt like, in this case, people started to chart their own path. So you really saw the entrepreneurial spirit come out of the different teams. And so we could create product lines that we never had before, and services that we’ve never had before, and new groups within our organization, just because of what people were able to bring just from their own natural abilities and interests.

SRG
So cool. I love stories like that. That just gets me like so fired up. So we met because you agreed to do Female Founders last season, which was amazing, and you absolutely killed it. And the topic of that was B Corps. So you know, for folks that that weren’t at the event, we do have a recording. You can check it out on our website and from the Media Factory. But as I said to you then, I just had never thought of a marketing communications firm being a B Corp. So if you can just tell us a little bit about why you went down that path, why it’s important to the organization, and maybe how it’s shaped the work that you do.

EF
Yeah, B Corp is such an incredible organization in that it helps us to really focus and be accountable to making choices about our business that are not just in the benefit of our business, but also in the benefit of society and the planet. And that is an ethos that’s been true to us from the beginning of time, but it really brings that accountability factor, which is what we love, and also helps us from a planning standpoint, in how we continuously improve. Where it really comes into play from a communication standpoint is, I think oftentimes we lose sight of how powerful communication is and how much it can impact society. So one of the things we talked about at the Female Founders is just how much money is spent in advertising every single year, and it’s in the hundreds of billions of dollars. And when you go back and you actually study advertising and marketing and see what it has done, there are places where there’s been great change, and then there have been places that have been really damaging to society, whether it’s the way girls view themselves, or habits that we take up and it’s… so that’s one of the things that as we think about our opportunity as communicators, it all comes down to human psychology and really understanding why do people and how do people make decisions. And so we think about, how can we use that skill and that knowledge and information to help people make choices that are in their best interest and that are going to be better for the planet, better for society longer term, rather than, you know, working with a brand or a product that’s potentially damaging

DB
And are you doing that, sort of taking the brands you’re working with and helping them along this journey? Are they sort of showing up with it? Or are you like saying, ‘Hey, you can use advertising for the sale, but it could be a harmful sort of second order result, or maybe do it a different way?’ Are they coming to you for that sort of choice, or do they even know they have that choice?

EF
We’re primarily working with the companies who are already operating in that way. So there are consultants who are able to partner with brands to really look into the way that they operate and help refocus their operations. That’s really outside of what we do, ours is focusing more on helping them to better connect with customers, to be able to take advantage of their products. A lot of times we find with brands that are more focused in the sustainability space, you know, we’re all really passionate about this area, and you can get really get your blinders up a little bit and want to go down this road of education, or you see a lot in sustainability around fear mongering and things of that nature. But those aren’t what drives us to buy things or make choices as human beings. And so it’s really helping brands to kind of step outside of themselves, and refocus in on the customer as a center point. It’s like, ‘What do they need, and how are you delivering on that? And refocus back around that component.’ Because, you know, they don’t necessarily need, like, an educational brochure on your X, Y and Z product. They want to understand, how is it going to help improve their life? Or whatever challenge it is that they’re looking to solve at the time.

SRG
That makes so much sense, and I think it’s, you know, one of the reasons I love that type of focus for a company is it has a ripple effect, right? Once you like, refocus on the customer, and let’s say your advertising, you kind of do so in other areas of business as well.

EF
Exactly. The best marketing is the actual customer experience to begin with. And I that’s one of the biggest challenges I think a lot of brands have, is they think that communication can solve all of their problems, especially big, big organizations where, you know, you’re trying to turn a whole ship. But if you’re really thinking about and putting the customer at the center of all of the decision making, from how they interact with your brand, how they purchase your product – so your customer service, everything – then that is the best marketing that you can have. And that was one of the big lessons from working in Major League Baseball, certainly, is like the experience that you create, and that connection and those relationships, that is your ultimate market.

DB
Right, that’s how you bring the flywheel. Yeah, because no great Instagram ad can replace a shitty time at a counter or

EF
Exactly

DB
customer service department. Can you talk a little bit about greenwashing? Is that like a real danger out there, and what’s it look like, and how do we sniff it out?

EF
It is. It’s definitely a danger. Every once in a while, we have a company come to us and, you know, they’ll say, ‘Oh, we’d love you to help us with our sustainability communication.’ And as I start to dig into it and take a look before we talk to anyone, it’s like, I am skeptical of this, and I have some specific questions that I’m going to ask before we agree to move forward. And a lot of times it’s a no, but you can usually tell pretty quickly if it’s inauthentic,

DB
like they don’t drive like a Prius or something?

EF
No, it’s just maybe, as you start to dig into other facets of their business that it’s potentially a program that they started to try to make themselves look a little bit better. But maybe it’s, it’s just a checkbox, it’s not necessary…

DB
Is it one or two questions, just generically that you try to ferret out this from people?

EF
Usually, a lot of it starts to come through as you research them online and start to really dig deeper into their website, how they talk about things. The truth is always out there. You just have to dig for it a little bit.

DB
Oooh, going all Agent Sully on this, right, Mulder, right, X-Files

SRG
Yeah, I love it. So, speaking of clients, one thing I’ve been dying to ask you, and this was, like, not on topic for B Corp, so I was like, one of the reasons I want to get you on the pod is just, you know, I think this is something that’s relevant to all companies. But let’s talk about winning clients. How do you close a deal? Like it’s, obviously it’s vital in what you do, but I think a lot of that stuff translates to SaaS companies or whatever. So can you talk a little bit about Erin’s strategy, like, what seems to work for you?

EF
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it comes down to, who do you want to sit at a table with and help you solve a problem? Because there are a lot of incredibly talented companies out there who can make a really beautiful print ad or beautiful TV spot, but when we talk to clients, we really talk about, we’re going to challenge you, and sometimes it’s gonna be uncomfortable, because that’s our job as your partner, is to push you in ways that are going to get you outside of your comfort zone. And we’re going to be the ones that, when you have a challenge, you’re going to pick up the phone and want to call because we’re going to help you think through that challenge and help you look at that from a new perspective and a different angle, so that we can come at it from a different way. So a lot of it is in the intangibles, but it’s how you’re going to experience working together, and then just being able to have clients who can then back that up and say, you know, vouch for you and say that ‘This is our experience,’ and that starts to speak for itself. Because certainly, there’s a lot of really talented advertising agencies out there, it’s not like we’re the only only ones doing this work. But we have a great reputation and go out there and talk to people, and I think, you know, it’s just that trust, you know that these are your people.

SRG
Yeah, do you think that you get that across to them based on, like, the questions you ask them in an initial call? Or, like, you know, poking holes in stuff right away? Or, like, what do you think it is about that experience with you? Because obviously, like, let’s say they have, you know, three different proposals from three different agencies, and they’re in sort of final interviews, like, how do you get across that sort of strategy, or the KSV magic?

EF
It’s right from the start, a lot of agencies come in and they do a capabilities presentation, and they spend an hour talking about themselves, and we come in and we spend an hour talking about the client and asking them questions and really digging in and trying to understand what’s happening for them. And so by the end of that hour, we have already started… they’ve already started to experience what it is like to work with us, because we are already problem solving with them

SRG
It’s like instant value,

EF
exactly,

SRG
Wow. So cool.

DB
Seriously, let’s dial it up a bit, Sam

Sam RG
I know I’m like alright

DB
I didn’t expect to have homework after this, wow

Break
You’re listening to Start Here, a podcast from Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies. VCET is a public benefit corporation serving Vermont businesses from start to scale. We provide no cost strategic business advising for any business owner, regardless of stage or industry, as well as venture capital for early stage tech or tech-enabled businesses. You can find us online at vcet.co, that’s V-C-E-T dot C-O. If you like what you’re hearing, please help us out, and rate, review, and subscribe to our podcast today. Now, back to the show.

DB
How many folks are at them, in the company today?

EF
We have 40 today, after…in 2020 when we bought the agency, we had 14.

SRG
Woah!

DB
14 of 40, and you’re in New York and Vermont, two offices? Or are you all over?

EF
We have two offices, but we have staff in 14 states. So we’re all we’re all over these days.

DB
Wow, how do you like that? I mean, was that a model you wanted? Or did it just sort of come with the times?

EF
It was an opportunity that opened up because of COVID. So we already were used to working across locations, because of our New York and Vermont offices, which we were very fortunate, was much easier for us to transition. But we didn’t know how long that was going to last, and you know, it really helped us to open up the talent pool and find people and skill sets that we wouldn’t have found otherwise. So I don’t know. It just worked, and then we just kept going. So our Vermont folks are in the office two days a week, and then everybody else is remote. And it works, I don’t know.

DB
Do you think if you hadn’t started winning from the outset, would you have resisted finding talent that wasn’t within eyesight of you three founders that had sort of been in the trenches? I’m kind of curious.

EF
No, I don’t think so. I am an inherently trusting person, so I sort of start with you have, we call it the marble jar. All the marbles are in the jar, and then you have to lose them, rather than, you know, some folks are like, you’ve got to add to the jar.

SRG
That’s Dave’s philosophy as well.

DB
Yeah, all the students start with an A, it’s up for them to lose it.

EF
Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, I assume everyone’s coming in, they want to do a good job, they’re going to work hard, and as long as they’re doing their job well and available, and then there’s no concerns here. So, you know, I think in the instance that we were in, we have to try new things, right? You can’t just fall back on old ways. You never know if you don’t try something different, what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. And one of the agencies in our network has a really help. They talked about, they talk about everything is temporary, and everything’s just an experiment. And they said having that mindset going into it makes it much easier to walk away when something’s not working.

DB
Oh, and that’s great. Having people in 14 different states, has that helped them in the client acquisition process? Like, does a firm in Austin, Texas want to work with you because you’ve got people there, or no?

EF
Not anymore. I think maybe a decade ago that would have been the case, when things were a lot more regionalized. But that’s not the case anymore. And, you know, we have, you can have clients all over and so I think it’s nice when their account person is close to them, we usually look to have like a direct flight away. That’s our focus.

SRG
That’s helpful, for sure. So VCET works with a ton of startups, so really early stage companies. When do you think it makes sense for startups to start working with an agency? Is it ever like too soon or too late? Do you think there’s sort of a sweet spot?

EF
I think having marketing support from the beginning and the way that you’re thinking about how you build things is really valuable from a consultancy standpoint, and also to help prioritize as you grow. So being able to kind of map out your tier one, your tier two, your tier three. Things both thinking about if you’re hiring or if you’re working with a partner. I think having a consultant to help you map that out is really important. Oftentimes in the early stages, it’s going to be freelancers that are going to help plug very specific holes, and it won’t be until you’re able to scale at a much larger rate that you’re going to want to bring in an agency, more from like, a cost standpoint than anything else. But I do think really thinking from the start of like, ‘What does that trajectory look like?’ and being able to identify those stage gates is really helpful, so that it feels less winging it, and like there’s a little bit more of a plan

SRG
Totally. And I think a lot of the companies we work with struggle with that, because they’re building product, they’re trying to get customers, they’re trying to, like, get revenue, they’re trying to be really, really efficient with their capital. I’m wondering, if you know, keeping in mind a super early company, very limited budget, what do you think the few things they should prioritize are? If you have a really small marketing budget, you’re just getting started, like, where do you begin?

EF
It depends on the company and your customer, but I think one of the big things everyone has to be thinking about is how you’re optimized for search, and not just how search is today, but how search is going to be in the future with generative AI. So really thinking about the role your website is playing, that’s where it comes down to. I would put a lot of energy and focus into your website, ensuring it’s optimized for search, both for the way Google works, but also how the you know generative AI tools are going to be reading it and pulling information, because that’s the future of search, right? And and knowing that so many customers like to do the majority of their research before they ever pick up a phone or go to a store or finally put that product in the cart, so your online presence has to work really hard for you, and I think that sometimes it’s an afterthought for people, but it really needs to be a big focus, both from a usability standpoint and from, like, an information standpoint.

DB
I mean, that’s the top of the funnel that you don’t control or see, right? It’s, you don’t know what you don’t know,

SRG
and it’s much harder to fix it later on, right? Like, if you start, start doing it correctly from the beginning, and, you know, not putting a ton of money into it, obviously, but just like, you know, crossing the t’s, dotting the i’s, making sure everything works, and, you know, the sort of low hanging fruit, I’m sure it’s much easier for a marketing consultant or an entry level marketing person or eventually an agency to step in and help,

EF
Yeah. And bringing in like a UX strategist to help with that before building anything, because you’re right, it’s kind of like, you just sort of start adding stuff on here and there, and then the next thing you know, you’ve got a hot mess. But if you’re designing it

DB
So have you been to the VCET website? That was so kind how she put that Sam.

EF
I wanted to talk to you guys about that, so I’m glad you brought it up. But you know, if you start from the beginning, thinking about it from that viewpoint, and also from an accessibility standpoint, it makes it so much easier to design it right from the start.

SRG
I love that. That’s so helpful.

DB
Any awkward moments over the years when, let’s say, a founder, business owner comes in and they love their logo, their brand, they might have done it themselves, and you have to have that like, ‘Yeah, not so much conversation.’ Like,

EF
it happens all the time, all the time. It can be really hard. People are really attached and proud of the things that they do, but we never are like, this is garbage, you know, you got to throw this out. What we try to focus in on is, what are the things that really work well for you in it? Why? What is the why behind this? So what drove you to do this? What are, what are the elements of it that you really enjoy and appreciate? Because there’s so much to learn in all of those questions that’ll help us to figure out, okay, ‘How do we steer this in the right direction?’ But, yeah, there’s, you know, there’s always a time when a client has an idea that’s really terrible, and you need to figure out how to redirect,

SRG
Gently steer them in another direction.

EF
Yeah,

SRG
yeah. Figure out what’s possible.

DB
Don’t you eyeball me, Sam. I said, Nothing, I love my dinosaurs.

SRG
I know do, Dave,

DB
Who doesn’t like dinosaurs? Okay, you do, okay, fine, fine. You ask the next question, I’ve got to recover.

SRG
OK, well, this question, I think, might be helpful for some people in the room, aka Nicole Eaton, our marketing manager, who graduated from UVM in 2023, but I want to talk about young people that are interested in careers in marketing. At the beginning, you were talking about how it’s, you know, you don’t always end up where you think you’re going to end up. Or it’s not always what you expect. You know. Do you need to have a, you know, four-year degree in marketing specifically? Or, like, what type of things should young people be thinking about if they want a career like yours?

EF
I’m sure that colleges and universities would not be pleased to hear me say this, but I don’t think you need a degree in marketing at all. I do think there are helpful elements to really learn some of the fundamentals, but there’s also so much access to knowledge out there in the world these days that you can self-educate if you’re driven to do that, I think more importantly is internships, and that is where college does provide connections and is helpful in a way that it’s just, it’s not that it’s not possible. It’s just a little bit harder to to find those opportunities and make those connections on your own, but I think that’s where it’s really valuable, where you can start to get hands on and see what is this actually and what does it mean, and is this something I’m interested in? But I would, anyone going into marketing, I would encourage them to really focus in on psychology, certainly, and technology, and just human behavior and human experience, like, I think those are the areas that you want to focus on, because we’re essentially, whether it’s an ad or something else we’re thinking about how do we take technology to enable someone to access what they’re looking to solve for, right?

SRG
Makes total sense.

EF
Yeah

SRG
That’s so fascinating. So now I’m curious what, how do you keep yourself educated on that kind of stuff? Is there anything that you like read or listen to religiously?

EF
Um, I so we’re, we talk about being a continuous learning organization, and that you know, if you’re not learning, you’re dead. So we’re always looking. So we have, we’re part of the magnet network, which is a network of like 40 agencies around the world, which is incredible, because I get a chance every month to talk to the CEOs of all of these different agencies and share information. And then we have conferences. And so we’re constantly learning from each other, but then I will take knowledge from anywhere. There’s great books out there to read, podcasts, of course, we read Ad Age, but that’s sort of talking to ourselves. So I try not to put too much stock into that

DB
The glossies,

SRG
That’s hilarious

EF
But you know, in looking in unexpected sources, so also looking at different industries and how different industries are solving problems, everything is so transferable. And then, of course, I work with a coach. We are, all the partners work with their own coach, just to help us with their own professional development.

SRG
You say of course, but I don’t think a lot of leadership actually does that.

EF
I would highly recommend it,

SRG
Awesome

EF
especially if you are in the CEO role, it’s so helpful to have someone there to just hold you accountable and just really push you to do things that are going to be outside of your comfort zone, or just really help keep you focused on where you need to prioritize your time. I think especially when you’re in a startup, it’s so easy to get spread out in a million directions, or get pulled into what feels like the hottest fire at the moment. But maybe that’s, that could be a problem for somebody else

SRG
So good, absolute gems.

DB
I’m gonna cancel team meeting this week, just gotta, we gotta let this cool off a little bit

SRG
Dave is feverishly taking notes.

DB
No I am. I’m fascinated. Can I ask a question about Vermont?

EF
Yeah,

DB
How do you think our brand’s doing? What do you think

EF
Ooh

SRG
Interesting question, Dave

DB
There is a lot going on, right?

EF
There is a lot going on. I don’t know how to answer that question, because I think I’m too inside, which is the same problem many of our clients have.

DB
Oh, do you have, like tourism as a client or something? OK, sorry

EF
No, we don’t have tourism. But more like, I have my view, because I live here, but how I viewed Vermont before I lived here was really different. So I think that’s a hard answer. I think that’s a hard question to answer from being inside, but I think people kind of see it as a bit of an oasis, like a little bit of the last untapped opportunity.

SRG
It is so hard to change, like, have an out. You can’t really have an outside perspective when you’re in it.

EF
Yeah,

SRG
That’s so true so true.

DB
It’s a fascinating time. You know, after the COVID years and all the changes in life and people arriving and going and costs and things, there’s this massive tug between fear and greed going on,

EF
Yes

DB
and whether that’s short term rentals or building and zoning like…there’s this dialog and tension that I have not seen in my couple decades up here, and you can’t help but have that reflected in what people see as a visitor

EF
Yeah

DB
or as a potential employee or a student, and I’m just kind of curious if there’s a canary in the coal mine out there that we should be aware of.

EF
No but I feel that as a business owner, I have, you can’t get people to move here, because there’s no place to live.

SRG
Yeah, even if they want to be here

EF
Yeah, they want to move here, they can’t, yeah, or they’re moving, if they have family here, they’re moving in with their family. We have multiple employees, they can’t find a place to live.

SRG
Yeah, we hear that from so many founders. We had that conversation with Lisa Groeneveld aways back. It’s just, you know, it’s, it’s way more painful to, like, have the person they say, yes, they want to be here, and then, like, they literally can’t live here. They’re living in a hotel or whatever.

EF
Yeah

SRG
It’s just kind of mind blowing. That actually touched on something I want to talk to you a little bit about, because I feel like agency positions, especially one with, you know, KSV, which is, so you know, highly regarded. How do you handle interviewing and, like what do you look for? Do you look for the more hard skills or soft skills or like, what is your approach to finding great people?

EF
We do, we have interview guides for each of our roles, to help us focus in on what are the key things that we’re looking for, and then also to make sure that we’re asking all the candidates similar questions. But it’s a bit of both. So we have what we call core competencies for our agency, and they’re essentially just like, actually observable and measurable values. So we put definitions and language around it, and like, what does it mean to be skilled in this versus not? So that we’re not just talking in these like big gray areas, but like this is what this actually means. And then we’re structuring our interview guides to be able to explore that. So for example, in that agency life, you have to be resilient. It is a really hard business to be in. And so we structure our questions to get at that, to understand if that’s something that someone has naturally, but through the lens of what their day to day is going to be like. So whether that for account service is like your question earlier about when a client has something that they love, and maybe it’s not strategically the best direction for them, you know, how do you navigate them through that? Or, you know, we have some scenario questions that kind of help us dig into things that they’re going to likely run into, but also hit on those core competencies we look for

SRG
That’s so smart, damn it. Interview guides

DB
Sounds like a lot of work, setting that up. Was that through the magnet group that you became aware, or was that part of the B Corp,

EF
That was

DB
sort of employee fairness, hiring practice?

EF
That was something that we worked on through our leadership coach, that we worked on to really try to focus more in on definitions, and then we developed the interview guides based on that. So it just helps to make sure that you’re assessing people based on what you’re really looking for, because it’s so easy to get sucked into a conversation and go down this whole different direction, then you leave and you’re like, actually, I don’t even know if that person is great for the role, I just know that they also like Real Housewives,

SRG
Right…

EF
you know?

DB
Hired!

SRG
I mean, yeah, I think that’s such a good point, especially if you like the person or you have similar interests, that’s really hard,

EF
and it’s so worth it to vet. You know, we say slow to hire, quick to fire. It’s so important to put that upfront time in to make sure you’re getting the right person, because you’re going to invest so much time in bringing them in and onboarding them, and you know, the goal is for them to be there for the long term.

SRG
Totally. Man, so good. So good. Dave, did you want to ask the magic wand you got? You want me to ask it?

DB
Yeah, go for it.

SRG
Oh my god, thank you so much

DB
Go for it.

SRG
All right, Erin, this is a big deal. I don’t want to be nervous, but it’s a pretty big deal. If you could change one thing about Vermont today with a magic wand, what would you change?

EF
I mean, I think you teed me up. It would be the housing situation.

SRG
Yeah,

EF
it’s really hard to see people not be able to find a place to live. And I was so fortunate when we moved here. I mean, it was even hard then, you know, we were the only people to see our house, and we put an offer in on it while we were standing in it. And there were other offers that came in after ours. And we were just so lucky that the woman decided to take the first one, because I know we weren’t the highest,

SRG
yeah.

EF
So, you know, I think about that so many years ago, and what it is today, that’s the hard part.

DB
Yeah

SRG
Yeah, there’s so much luck involved. But yeah, it’s ugly now, it’s just, you’re hearing these stories of people that are, you know, have been looking for, you know, three years, and put in 20 offers, and, you know, they’re getting beat by cash that’s twice the asking price, right?

EF
So I never thought I would say this, I moved here from Massachusetts, right? Because I wanted this thing. I have two employees moving to Massachusetts because it’s easier to find housing.

DB
Yeah, right, right, it used to be cheaper here, it’s not. It used to be… and you could go out into the adjacent towns, right? Also, that was a beautiful 15 minute ride in and and that stock is tied up too. So all right, we’ll work on that.

SRG
So what do you think, Erin, how’d it go? Was it worth coming in?

EF
It was good. I was glad. I’m glad I’m here. I might just stay for the rest of the day.

SRG
Yes

DB
Please do. It’s a fantastic co working space.

Sam RG
I won’t ask you for anything else for a while, but your team can totally come use a conference room. We owe you now, okay,

DB
Oh yeah, totally like,

SRG
We’ll buy you lunch.

DB
You’d be really surprised with the magic that can happen by getting off site into a fun place and being around dinosaurs actually

EF
I love it. Alright

DB
Alright

EF
I’m gonna explore the dinosaurs.

SRG
Yeah, I guess

DB
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. This has been Start Here, a podcast sharing the stories of active, aspiring, and accidental entrepreneurs. This series is supported by the Vermont Technology Council and Consolidated Communications. Let’s get back to work.