David Dolginow / Shacksbury
Start Here Podcast | Episode #78 | 8/17/2023
Meet David, the dad of three and co-founder of Shacksbury Cider. After graduating from Middlebury in 2009, David teamed up with Colin Davis to create the Vergennes-based cidery that makes dry, easy-to-drink beverages. Their journey started with a handshake over beers and now, 10 years later, Shacksbury is thriving and about to launch a new Sweater Weather cider this fall.
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Transcription:
DAVID DOLGINOW
So, we felt like it was still inspired by our roots, and still had these traditional methods. But it was a drink you could have. You could be watching a game and drink three of. Or you could be out at a picnic, or on a boat. And you just didn’t need to – it wasn’t so special. I would give people Shacksbury in the early days and like, “Oh, this is great! I’ll save it for our anniversary or New Year’s Eve.” And wanted to just scream at the top of my lungs was, “NO! PLEASE! Drink it on Tuesday with takeout!”
SAM ROACH-GERBER
From Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies, it’s Start Here, a podcast sharing the stories of active, inspiring, and accidental entrepreneurs. Today, we are joined by our old pal, David Dalginow, co-founder of Shacksbury. The Addison County-based maker of organic and complex ciders. Welcome, this is Sam Roach-Gerber.
DAVE BRADBURY
And David Bradbury.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Recording from the Consolidated Technology Hub in downtown Burlington, Vermont. David, hello, how are you?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Howdy!
DAVE BRADBURY
Howdy, David!
DAVID DOLGINOW
We’re doing well today.
DAVE BRADBURY
So awesome you’re here.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Just a couple Daves and the Sam.
DAVE BRADBURY
Just a couple Daves and a Sam.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
I love it. I’m so happy you’re here. First of all, thank you for all of our support with our student entrepreneurs. You’re an Addison County-based entrepreneur, so we knock on your door at least once a year to come chat with our Mid kids and so appreciate that. So, thanks for coming up to Burlington this time.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, pleasure’s all mine, really. I love getting back on campus and taking part in those classes.
DAVE BRADBURY
Yeah, what do you get out of it? Why talk to the Middlebury students every January?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Students are just so full of curiosity and enthusiasm. And there’s just so much power in youth. Being now in my mid-30s with three kids and a 10-year old business, and just being able to kind of look back and think about being a student and hear from the students. And hear about what they’re thinking about and what motivates them. I think I learn probably more than they do at the end of the day. Or at least as much.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
I love that. And while we’re on the subject, can you talk to us a little bit. You went to Middlebury. Tell us about your college days and how maybe that influenced your path to entrepreneurship.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think my path to entrepreneurship – I apologize for the pun. But the apple does not fall far from the tree.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That didn’t take long.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Doesn’t take long. There will be more. There will be more.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
You’re a dad of three, so –
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, oh, yeah!
DAVE BRADBURY
Like literally. That’s like, “Oh, yeah, Dad jokes.”
DAVID DOLGINOW
Here for it. So, my family has been in the business world for many, many generations, going back to Russian Jews in the late 1800s, when my dad’s side of the family landed in Kansas City. In the early 1900s, they started a pawn shop, which would become a jewelry store. Focused on jewelry. And would eventually become a larger almost like a department store back in that day.
Instead of the internet, they had catalogs. So, it was a catalog where you’d get the catalog that was like –
DAVE BRADBURY
Thick phone book look.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Three inches thick! And you’d order your Weber grill or whatever. So, that was the family business. And my dad from there had a jewelry store that was the family business from more or less when I was born through – my middle brother has taken over as the fourth generation retail jeweler in our family. So, I grew up in business. And it kind of just – I found my way back there pretty quickly.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Before you went to college, were you like, “I’m going to do something different!” and then it kind of started to seep back in?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. The only thing I really remember definitely wanting to be when I grew up as a kid was a professional soccer player.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Oh, there’s still time.
DAVE BRADBURY
How did that turn out?
DAVID DOLGINOW
You know? Two, not one, but two of my teammates growing became professional soccer players. One became the first Kansan to play in the World Cup. The World Cup in Brazil. Matt Besler. So, I didn’t make it. I had to tap out due to a genetic heart condition that I found that I had in high school. So, that brought my soccer career to a screeching halt when I was 16. And I got to focus on other things. And fortunately, I was really dedicated to my studies and found myself lucky enough to go to Middlebury College.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
And what did you study?
DAVID DOLGINOW
I studied religion with a focus in Islam. And I almost had a second major in geography. But I love looking as history and studying history through the lens of religion. And the professor at the time who focused on Islam was just an absolutely astoundingly talented person, and became a mentor and someone who I just loved learning from. And I went to Middlebury specifically for that reason. I like the small school where you’d be close to these brilliant people, and people who are there because they love to teach.
And so when I stumbled accidentally into Professor Sterns’s course in 2007, I found myself right at home. And it was a total accident. I was literally on Banner Web, which is probably long-gone now.
DAVE BRADBURY
No, they still call it that.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Yeah, yeah.
DAVID DOLGINOW
They still? Okay. So –
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Irrelevant.
DAVID DOLGINOW
It just said “Paradise Lost,” and so I thought it would be a course on Milton. But I missed the colon or it didn’t show up, which was, “Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Al-Andalus.” So, I literally walked through – February, the Valentine’s Day snowstorm of 2007, which was we got 28”.
DAVE BRADBURY
I was not in class that day, yeah.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, in 24 hours, I walked backwards across Battell Beach, this large green area on the Middlebury campus to literally get to the class. And notably, it wasn’t canceled because Professors Sterns was very committed to his craft. And along with four other people, I just got to hang out with one of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. And I was like, “All right! This is! I’m in! I’m going to take every one of his courses and some other religion courses, too.” And I just loved the department. It was a familial place. They did these awesome dinners, and the professors really opened themselves and their homes up to the students. And I just went all in.
DAVE BRADBURY
So, would that family history of entrepreneurs and business owners, did they get why you were studying religion? Or, did they want you take accounting or something?
DAVID DOLGINOW
That’s a good question. I think that we were all on board that Middlebury College was not a vocational school. We were going to Middlebury to basically learn how to learn. And so long as the grades were good and the focus was there, my parents were very much okay with whatever path I would choose.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That’s so great.
DAVID DOLGINOW
So, both my parents, they always agreed on trying to give us the best education possible. So, that was a central priority for them that shaped so many other decisions, like many families, I guess. Where we lived, and everything went around education. So, they were really committed to that through undergrad. And so that’s what helped open up…
I have two older brothers. So, my oldest brother Dustin really – I don’t think anyone in our family knew what a liberal arts degree was before him. Neither of my parents graduated from college. And my dad was at M.U. when it was hippy town in the ‘70s and had a different educational experience, let’s say.
And so Dustin, my oldest brother, really learned about all the different college and university opportunities and, as the oldest siblings have to do, he carved the path. My middle brother went down a similar path. And at that point, it’s like, well, if they can do it, so can I.
DAVE BRADBURY
Perfect, perfect. So, you co-founded Shacksbury with Colin Davis. Tell us about how that partnership came together, and what your roles are, either back then or today. And have they changed at all?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, yeah. So, 10 years ago, which is just exciting to say. I don’t know if I’ve done many things in my life for –
DAVE BRADBURY
God, you were such a puppy, though, when you started that.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Oh, yeah.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Such a nice round number. Really lean into that.
DAVID DOLGINOW
It is. And for all those listeners out there, our first office was VCET Middlebury. So, thank you –
DAVE BRADBURY
That’s right, the courthouse.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Thank you for that.
DAVE BRADBURY
You had such a crew back there with [00:10:53 Seed Sheed and Farraday and Iris VR].
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah.
DAVE BRADBURY
And Shacksbury.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, recess.
DAVE BRADBURY
Recess, that’s coming back, too. People are starting to talk about active recess again.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, totally, totally. So, Colin and I, originally we met socially when we were in our 20s living in Middlebury. A friend and I started a weekly social thing we called Pizza Tuesday. And the idea was simple. Somebody hosted. They made doughs. And people came to hang out, and people brought toppings. So, make pizza, have some beers, maybe some ciders. And make some friends.
Because when I graduated, all my friends from college moved away. So, I had to make new friends. So, Colin was living in the area and we got to know each other socially first. In addition to the pizzas, we loved to play pickup sports. So, we would often be playing basketball or what have you. And then there came a point where I was working at Sunrise Orchards in Cornwall, a large wholesale-driven orchard. One of the largest in the state. And we hired Colin as a consultant to think about value-added apple products.
And that was really the transition from when we were friends to when we were working together as colleagues. And he was working for an e-recycling firm at the time called Good Point Recycling in Middlebury. And I think the partnership worked right out of the gate because he loves to make things. And I love to sell things. Neither of us really enjoys the other’s job.
DAVE BRADBURY
Nice.
DAVID DOLGINOW
And so still today, I’m more on the sales and marketing side of the business. And then he’s really on the operational side of the business. And then we’re sharing finance, legal, and all the rest of it. HR.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
So, did you start – what were you doing right after school? Because you did start Shacksbury right away.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, I decided to stick around Vermont. Well, what I told people was that I was sticking around Vermont to farm. But the truth of the matter is I was really sticking around to see about a relationship, which worked out.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Will this be the mother of your children?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Mother of my three wonderful children.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Oh!
DAVID DOLGINOW
So, she was a couple classes behind me at Middlebury. And I had been working in New York, D.C., San Francisco, and was very much on more of an urban track. But put a pause on that. I worked at Golden Russet Farm, a diversified organic veggie farm for a season right out of college. So, I graduated in February and started there in March. And then all the while was talking to Barney Hodges at Sunrise Orchards about working for him. And then again, that’s where the apple situation – apple falling from the tree situation really comes to light. Because much as selling apples was a lot different than selling jewelry, they’re both small businesses, and it felt very at-home for me to just be back in that environment.
DAVE BRADBURY
Got it. So, he chose love and stuck around, Sam.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
It’s really warming my heart today. Awesome. So, you and Colin worked well together, decided to start a cider brand together.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah! So, we shook hands at Dollar Miller Draft Night at Fire & Ice in Middlebury. I was SO nervous going into that meeting. Because we were getting closer and closer, and either we were going to do this thing together, or he was going to start some type of apple beverage business.
DAVE BRADBURY
Hold on, wait a minute. You actually had set the meeting for Dollar Miller Draft Night.
DAVID DOLGINOW
I called the meeting.
DAVE BRADBURY
Okay, I wanted to make sure this was planned.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Dollar Miller Draft Night, that was a coincidence, but I just remember it clear as day. I wonder if they still…? They must not. It’s impossible to find a beer for a dollar, right? That doesn’t exist anymore.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
We’ll have to check it out.
DAVID DOLGINOW
I’ll have to look into that.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
We’ll fact check.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Next time I’m on, we’ll get that fact checked. But it was definitely Dollar Miller Draft Night. And Colin is a year older than my oldest brother. And my oldest brother is basically a demigod to me. So, I’m trying to work up the courage to say, “Hey, I want to do this, but I’m only going to do this if we do it 50-50, because that’s just what I need.” And I’m sweating a little bit just thinking about that. And it worked out.
And he just kind of lit up. And he was like, “That sounds great!” And I was like, “Oh. Great! All right.” And then from there –
DAVE BRADBURY
And you just put a dollar on the bar to pay for your own drinks and the rest was history.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Basically, yeah. There was 100 shares to the company. We each had 50, and it was a beautiful and simple time.
DAVE BRADBURY
Oh, my gosh.
DAVID DOLGINOW
And a time full of potential energy. And so we got going. We entered the cider market when cider was BOOMING. I mean it this was before hard seltzer. It was growing 70% a year. Woodchuck had just sold for $305 million to the C&C Group out of Ireland.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Gluten was the enemy.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Gluten was the enemy. And craft beer was also booming, and had really laid the groundwork in many ways for the craft cider movement.
DAVE BRADBURY
It must have been very easy, then.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Easy? I don’t think so.
DAVE BRADBURY
I’m razzing you.
DAVID DOLGINOW
But it was certainly a different time in the industry. It was exciting, being in an industry that’s growing, in a category that’s growing that quickly. It’s very dynamic.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
So, from the Draft Night handshake to having a product on the shelves, how long we talking?
DAVID DOLGINOW
So, that was spring 2013. We were incorporated July 1, 2013. So, that’s when we really mark the start. And then our first product hit shelves in Vermont and in Boston in summer of ’14.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Wow.
DAVID DOLGINOW
When we first started Shacksbury, we were a very wine-driven cider company. So, I would say our model was to basically go after the $12 to $15 table wine market. Instead of table wine, you’d have cider, which is very much inspired by the European cider tradition. Where still today, and for hundreds of years, up until today, they drink cider in 750 ml bottles and it’s complex and very similar to grape wine.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That’s what I was going to ask. At this point, was Shacksbury just in bottles?
DAVID DOLGINOW
It was just in bottles, and just in 750 ml bottles. It was still. We imported. So, we had partners we worked with to get certain types of cider in England and in Spain. So, we came to market in a very different way than most cider companies.
DAVE BRADBURY
It was. And you had some really neat early retailers in San Fran and in New York and other markets that really validated early on. And you won some awards and gold medals, wherever they were, if I recall.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah.
DAVE BRADBURY
So, what did you learn from that wine-like format to what you are today? What was the shift all about?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, I would say over time, what we learned or what we felt was that the cider market – cider drinkers, broadly – are looking to cider as a beer alternative. And what that means to me is that it’s most American consumers are expecting it to be 5-6%. They’re expecting it to be in smaller formats like beer. So, cans or on draft, in kegs. They’re looking for bubbles. And they’re looking for it to be easy drinking.
And so we didn’t really fully embrace that for many years. We were really focused on, again, this food-driven, sort of complex and nuanced ciders that taste amazing complemented with dinner. And what we felt like after a number of years is that that market is just not quite large enough to support the size of company that we aspire to build. And so we shifted. We still make ciders like that. But we saw an opportunity to make a rosé cider, which was really our first foray into that more easy-drinking, middle of the road cider.
DAVE BRADBURY
Breakout product.
DAVID DOLGINOW
And 2018 was dubbed by “Food & Wine” the Year of the Non-Wine Rosé. So, you had rosé vodkas and rosé this and rosé that. And we were written up as one of the first rosé ciders. And made like a rosé wine, where it’s using grape skins to create the flavor and color. So, we felt like it was still inspired by our roots, and still had these traditional methods. But was a drink you could have, you could be watching a game and drink three of. Or you could be out at a picnic or on a boat. And you just didn’t need to – it wasn’t so special.
I would give people Shacksbury in the early days, and like, “Oh, this is great! I’ll save it for our anniversary or New Year’s Eve!” And what I wanted to just scream at the top of my lungs was, “NO! PLEASE! Drink it on Tuesday with takeout! It’s not special!”
DAVE BRADBURY
And reorder.
DAVID DOLGINOW
We need you to drink and go buy another one next week! Because this only works if we get you to buy it all the time.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That’s how my husband looks at a collared shift. I’m like, “You can just wear that on a Tuesday. You don’t need the special occasions, right?”
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah!
SAM ROACH-GERBER
I hear that. And so, was that rosé cider a bridge to this new more approachable sparkling can?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. It was one of the first times where when it came out, you could feel the buzz. You’re like, there’s something different about this. And it was the first time where we just couldn’t keep up with production. At the time, we didn’t have our own primary production facility. So, our core ciders were being made by our good friends at Woodchuck. So, we had to choose in advance how much we were going to make. And we just wildly underestimated how much cider we needed that year. And it just –
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That would be heartbreaking.
DAVID DOLGINOW
– sold out. And then it sold it. And then it sold out. And it was just, it was awesome. It was a fun year. We saw a lot of growth. We were a pretty small team then, relatively speaking. Because again, we were having it co-packed, so we didn’t have as many production people. And we were just rocking and rolling.
DAVE BRADBURY
It’s amazing that so much of the earlier years, the challenge was, let’s find that breakout product or the product-market fit, right? And then you got it, and it creates a whole host of other problems. So, too few sales or too many sales create different challenges for the team.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Absolutely.
DAVE BRADBURY
Which do you prefer?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Oh, 100%, I almost said too few sales. But too many sales is obviously the happy place to be. But I am the punching bag that gets… I deal with the projections. So, if we’re running out of product, it is my fault. And I also manage the sales team. So, those folks are understandably upset if we’ve worked so hard to get these important placements –
SAM ROACH-GERBER
They’re like, “I did my job. You got to do yours, man!”
DAVID DOLGINOW
Exactly. And so having too little product is definitely its own problem. Cider, I would say, in my mind it’s not special enough to just be one of those products that you can run out of and then be like, “Oh, just wait a few weeks and it’ll come back.”
SAM ROACH-GERBER
People move on.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Maybe thinking about Heady Topper when it was just people were lined up for it. And it was special enough that people were going to come back in three weeks. With cider, if you’re just, “Sorry, Whole Foods, we’re not going to have product for three weeks,” they’re like, “Oh. It’s not a problem for us. We’ll just pull from the dozens of other cider companies that want that placement.”
So, too little product is definitely its own challenge. But also a much happier problem to have than looking at 1,000 cases of something that’s not selling. Which we’ve done, too.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Yeah.
DAVE BRADBURY
That’s right.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
So – oh, we’re going to ask the same question.
DAVE BRADBURY
Are we?
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Well, how do you view competition? If they have 12 other ciders ready to go, if it’s not you, you all brand yourself as having a complex flavor, right?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
What else to you sets Shacksbury apart, and how you approach that, has that influenced the way that you do business or you create products?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. Absolutely. From day one, I was very much a believer. Was really studying the cohorts of people in beverage who created a region, or created a style, and thus everyone benefited. So, like look at the origins of Napa Valley. It wasn’t an accident. It wasn’t like they just stumbled into it. It happened because of a group of very smart and dedicated people who created a demand for wines from that region. And then struggled and struggled and struggled along the way.
Or go back to Heady Topper and just the IPA craze. There was time when no one drank IPAs. And then now there’s a whole segment, the New England IPA. It’s its own style and it’s been huge boon for many brewers up here. So, when we came to the cider industry, I was blown away that there wasn’t an association at that time. There was a national association, but there wasn’t a New England chapter, really. So, I helped found the Vermont Cider Association and got going with a lot of the other craft producers and Woodchuck at that time, and have always viewed it like all boats rise together.
So, if we can hold a section in the grocery store or at the bar, at the restaurant, that is the cider section, that’s going to benefit everyone. If we all make a good, high-quality product that people want, we all benefit.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
More shelf space.
DAVID DOLGINOW
More shelf space. Just more. It creates that ecosystem effect for you tech people.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Thank you.
DAVID DOLGINOW
It creates that community. It creates that – it’s just you’re not standing alone out there. So, I’m always thrilled to hear about other cider companies that are winning and doing well. And new people coming in the space. Yeah, that’s a good thing for us. It indicates that we’re in a healthy environment.
DAVE BRADBURY
So, a couple business questions. How many employees do you have now?
DAVID DOLGINOW
We’re hanging right around 20.
DAVE BRADBURY
Twenty?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah.
DAVE BRADBURY
Wow. How many of those are here in Vermont?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Seventeen.
DAVE BRADBURY
Seventeen, right? And you’re producing where now?
DAVID DOLGINOW
We are in Vergennes. So, right leading into the pandemic. So, fall of ’19, we signed a lease for the old County Home Products space on Meigs Road. It’s kind of tucked away. The place it literally – if it all goes to shit, it’s like a concrete bunker. It was built by a company that –
DAVE BRADBURY
I always thought it was like the military industrial complex [00:29:47 crosstalk].
DAVID DOLGINOW
It’s just kind of tucked back. Country Home Products was there for decades. And they were acquired and the new company moved production to the Midwest and moved their call center to South Burlington. And so this space was 90,000 square feet. It had, probably in its heyday, about 300 employees in it. And we were just across the train tracks and saw the opportunity. We started talking to the landlord, the [00:30:22 Carrera] family. Absolutely incredible family. They’ve been super-supportive landlords. And we’ve been growing in that space since 2019.
Of course, going into the pandemic we were like, Yeah! Let’s go!” Fifty to 100% growth. “We’re just having – we’re going to fill this facility in three years! What could stop us?” And then March 2020 comes along and you’re like, “Oh! Well, 40% of our business is sold to bars and restaurants.” So, do the quick math. 2020, 2021 were tough years, tough years, tough years. And a tough time to have JUST invested.
I mean we signed the last major loan the week before our Stay Home and Stay Safe went into place. We had a tunnel pasteurizer sitting in the parking lot for several months. So, that was unexpected, as it was for everyone.
DAVE BRADBURY
You mentioned a loan. How did you fund the business along the way? Was there a mosaic of different sources? And did you enjoy that process?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Like all aspects of the business, I loved that part of the process when it’s going well. And I do not like that part of the process when it’s February 1 and we’re coming out of Dry January, and orders have been expectedly slow and yada, yada, yada. And cash is – and we’re in that unhappy cashflow time of year.
So, we started raising capital from day one. We agreed on that very early on. We were really trying to swing for it to be a regional, if not a national, brand. And a well-known brand. And we wanted to do it with resources that either Colin or I had. So, we started with angel investors. And we’ve done a number of rounds on the angel side. We never really got to a true institutional round. Of course, a slew of CPG-minded institutional investors, but they tend to be looking for businesses that are a little bigger than we’ve been. So, we have angels.
We’ve done two crowdfunding rounds through StartEngine during the pandemic. One was in 2020, and then a small follow-on round in 2021. And then we’ve got all kinds of different debt. So, we’ve done a little bit of everything in finance, basically, I would say. In 10 years, we’ve just, you know, we’ve hustled, we’ve made it happen. And to do it we’ve needed just a whole slew of different types of financing.
DAVE BRADBURY
Yeah, I give you so much credit for your success with StartEngine. I think I kind of rolled my eyes when I first saw that early on. I love being proven wrong. Like literally. This is the way you learn, right?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah! Yeah, we were, I believe the first Vermont company back when the cap for equity crowdfunding was $1 million, we were the first company to hit that mark. And honestly, we had no idea how it was going to turn out. We knew we were coming to that round of fundraising with some existing investors who wanted to put in some money. But that was maybe a quarter of the round. And we knew we had our email lists and our Instagram followers, and people out there, consumers who liked it. And we also knew it was fall 2020. Look back at that time. It was a wild presidential election. We were in the heart of shutdown. It was just one COVID wave after another. We just really didn’t know how people would respond.
We wanted the round to go up in September before the November election and going into the holidays, but it didn’t happen. We launched mid-October. And I think maybe part of the success was just sort of almost a retail therapy thing on some level. People were looking for outlets and were looking for ways to –
DAVE BRADBURY
To [00:35:11 unintelligible] their community.
DAVID DOLGINOW
You know, creative ways to support their communities.
DAVE BRADBURY
I was drinking more.
DAVID DOLGINOW
And spend some money and get some alcohol. And looking for a happier story. And I think we managed to craft that with that first campaign. So, that was a very different experience, but has been as positive as it could have been. I think the SEC did a good job with equity crowdfunding to create some regulation around it, but then also not make it so onerous that small businesses couldn’t actually use it. So, we had to do our annual filing, which is due at the end of April.
DAVE BRADBURY
Again, I think you’ve been the most successful case that I’m aware of here in Vermont for the equity crowdfunding.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, yeah.
DAVE BRADBURY
Both in terms of size and scope. And it must be nice to like – I can have a can of it and then make my investment decision kind of, right?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah!
DAVE BRADBURY
Versus like, “Oh, hey, fund us and we’ll build this thing.”
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, yeah. We certainly had a lot of traction by that point. We were seven to eight years in. So, I think that that definitely helped a lot.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Awesome. I talk to so many entrepreneurs that come into financing their businesses with so many preconceived notions about what a certain type of funding means. Whether you’re petrified of debt because you grew up with parents that were in debt, right? Or you think equity means you’re going to give away your entire business, or whatever. So, I think it’s – I love that you guys have used all the tools in the toolkit and it’s such a good reminder, I think, for folks out there that you do have to seek out these different resources and educate yourself on what does it actually mean, and what does it mean for my business? And what are the pros and cons? Am I giving up maybe a little bit of equity, but I could be first in the market? Then that can be a gamechanger.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. Absolutely. I remember when my oldest brother, who’s an early-stage tech investor and has been a tremendous resource for us, and he explained the difference between basically ownership and control. Because we grew up with our family business and our folks were owner-operators. And my dad, bless his soul, could never have had a business partner. He thought I was crazy for having even a business partner, much less investors. And it just wouldn’t have fit for him.
But for Colin and me, it was the perfect thing. It allowed us to – you know, raising capital and having that first affirmation. Honestly, that was the first time ever sold anything in a certain sense.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Totally.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Selling this vision. So, when it’s going well, it’s fun and it can be such a positive thing for a company. You’ve got those supporters out there. So, it can be a good thing.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Awesome. I just wanted to touch quickly on your branding. Because obviously it’s super-important for the type of business that you’re in. But I just love it, I’m obsessed with it. And I think it’s so clear. You go to City Market and it’s like they have every cool craft anything you’ve ever seen. And it’s a massive wall. And Shacksburys always catches my eye. So, can you just talk for a second about how you’ve approached and what is your sort of brand ethos?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah, I mean the early idea was Colin had heard of this incredible artist based here in Burlington, Annemarie Buckley, whose business is Buckley Projects.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Know her work well.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. And she had left Burton and started doing some just really beautiful stationery and invitations and different things like that. So, Colin had been following her work. I think Colin’s wife had written about Annemarie for “Seven Days,” maybe that’s how they originally came across her business. And she just has such a fresh view of – just an incredibly talented person.
So she, and then Colin being more on that creative side… I’m not the brand guy. Never was. But they really drove it. And the idea was to do sort of a modern take on classic Americana. So, the Shacksbury logo has that kind of old beer look. But the amount of time that we spent debating every curve of that –
DAVE BRADBURY
Oh, and the font is really remarkable.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Wordmark. The B-U-R-Y and how to handle the U-R and does it look like a W or not? Whatever. It was months spent on that.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
I’m actually happy to hear that. Because it’s so good, I wanted it to be a lot of effort.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. And Annemarie is just an incredible talent, and she does not settle for anything less than perfect. And so she really helped guide that. And then starting with our organize rebrand in the end of – I guess we started working at the end of 2021 – we worked with now another Vermont-based design crew called Always With Honor. And they’re based in Panton, which is about 15 minutes from our cidery.
And actually, when we first started working with Tyler and Elsa, they’re out in Portland, Oregon, but they have some family connections here and whatnot. And moved here and landed 15 minutes from the cidery, so we can go over to [00:41:22 Jen’s] Laundry and chat about things as we cook up the new projects.
So, those figures have all been instrumental in creating the visual side of the brand.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
And you looked at it and you were like, “Yeah, I can sell this.”
DAVID DOLGINOW
Exactly. Yeah. I was like, “Perfect.”
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That’s the box check.
DAVE BRADBURY
Have you had any product flops? Like flavors that just didn’t work out well? And why? What did you learn?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. We’ve had a few. We came out with a product which we called a spritz. And either it was too early or maybe we just didn’t give it enough time. I don’t know exactly why it didn’t really land.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Was that like three years ago?
DAVID DOLGINOW
No, probably going more toward four or five. But the first product, we wanted to do, it was our first effort at a rosé, so it must have been the start of ’17. And instead of rosé we did rose. Like rose petal. And rose, in the right amount, can be a lovely thing in a beverage.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Oh, botanical and delightful.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Just delightful. Too much rose, and you get just Grandma’s cheap perfume kind of thing. And we ended up going a LITTLE, like just dip that – a little too much in there. And it came out and I was like, “Whoa! This thing…” So, there are a few people out there who just adored it and loved that beverage. And a lot of people were like, “What’s going on here? Are you guys okay?”
DAVE BRADBURY
It must be so tough to figure that out. Do you test flavors now?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Yeah. We have basically our crew that is like four or five people that are on the new product team. So, we do bench taps and usually a few different rounds. And we’re coming to it with an idea. And now we also have a much larger body of work and we’re more used to working with flavorings. So, that’s always an exciting thing. We love working on new products. We love releasing new products. We love selling new products. Consumers love… We have to be careful not to try and come out with too many different things in a year. Because every additional SKU costs a lot of money, and it takes a lot of time and effort.
But we started a core rotator series this year, which has been really successful. So, we’ve just come out with a blackberry-lime cider that’s doing extremely well. We’ve got a cider called Sweater Weather coming out this fall, which Colin and I love. We love our sweaters. So, we’ve always wanted to do a sweater weather cider. And it’s going to happen this year.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Awesome. Well, I vote for another swing at the rose, because I think that would be really good. So, there’s your challenge. Your 2024.
DAVE BRADBURY
Do we call it Sammy’s Cider?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Sure! We can talk, we can talk.
DAVE BRADBURY
Little tart on the front end, nice and warm finish. There you go.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Exactly.
DAVID DOLGINOW
It’s got to be –
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Slightly botanical.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Guaranteed placement here at the VCET cooler, you know?
DAVE BRADBURY
Shacksbury is in our refrigerator most every day, except today, embarrassingly.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
It’s true.
DAVE BRADBURY
All right, we need to wrap up here, Sam.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Oh, man!
DAVE BRADBURY
I know, it goes by so quickly.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Magic wand time, very important aspect of the Start Here podcast. If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing about Vermont instantly, what would you change?
DAVID DOLGINOW
Oh, you’re talking to me.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
That’s two of us that don’t take a hint well, then.
DAVID DOLGINOW
I would have a bullet train to New York City, get there in a two and a half hours.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Sick! I’m in.
DAVE BRADBURY
Wow.
DAVID DOLGINOW
We got the train. Love it.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Ding, ding, ding, ding –
DAVID DOLGINOW
Very excited. We cheered it on.
DAVE BRADBURY
Well, you know why? Because Middlebury was shut down for like two years while they rebuilt that train section in downtown.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Well, there’s that, yeah. Really important to get that tunnel an inch higher or whatever. But yeah. I love New York City, I love going to New York City. It also gives us access. I’m always flying to Kansas City to see my family that’s there. And let me tell you, Middlebury, Vermont, to Kansas City, Missouri, is not a quick day’s travel.
DAVE BRADBURY
No, not at all.
DAVID DOLGINOW
So, a bullet train, overnight in New York, direct flight. Ah, it would be a dream!
SAM ROACH-GERBER
We’ll work on it for you.
DAVID DOLGINOW
Be a dream.
DAVE BRADBURY
Work on that. Dave, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of your journey. And Happy Birthday. This 10 years is really remarkable. You made it, and are making it, which is really wonderful. And also for your continued support of Middlebury College and their students entrepreneurs is really wonderful to pay it forward. And as you said, learn a little bit along the way.
SAM ROACH-GERBER
I’m proud and thirsty.
DAVE BRADBURY
This has been Start Here with Sam and Dave, a podcast showing the stories of active, aspiring, and accidental entrepreneurs. This series has been made possible by the Vermont Technology Council and Consolidated Communications. Thanks for listening. Let’s gulp the cider, Sam!
SAM ROACH-GERBER
Yeah.
